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freedomfflow Rookie Author Louisiana Posts:17 Points:2,290 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Apr 4, 2011 1:11:59 PM Ignore freedomfflow Report Abuse I don't understand the promise of electric cars. To produce batteries, and the electricity to recharge these batteries, don't we need to burn fossil fuels anyway? So don't we just create a new problem... that being having billions of batters that will need to be disposed of eventually? Hybrids make some sense to me because we can take the breaking energy and the like and convert that into electricity that can be stored in a batter and then used. However, what is wrong with oil in the first place? I don't get it. Oil is awesome. It's a natural. It's cheap. There's nothing that comes close to replacing it in industry.

freedomfflow

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Louisiana

Posts:17
Points:2,290
Joined:Mar 2011

Message Posted: Apr 4, 2011 1:11:59 PM

Ignore freedomfflow Report Abuse

I don't understand the promise of electric cars. To produce batteries, and the electricity to recharge these batteries, don't we need to burn fossil fuels anyway? So don't we just create a new problem... that being having billions of batters that will need to be disposed of eventually?

Hybrids make some sense to me because we can take the breaking energy and the like and convert that into electricity that can be stored in a batter and then used.

However, what is wrong with oil in the first place? I don't get it. Oil is awesome. It's a natural. It's cheap. There's nothing that comes close to replacing it in industry.

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HotRod10 Champion Author Wyoming Posts:2,291 Points:40,590 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: Jun 3, 2012 12:39:19 AM Ignore HotRod10 Report Abuse I suppose the CNG version of the Civic is alright, if you don't mind cutting the already meager cargo space in half and adding 200 pounds to the back end. Btw, I wasn't putting down CNG, just saying it has a downsides as well as its upsides, but thanks for illustrating my point on the downsides of using it for passenger vehicles.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,145 Points:1,825,050 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jun 2, 2012 9:21:12 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse gas camry hits volt and camry catches fire... seems like volt did fine here in states... i'll have to be careful next time i'm in china and in a taxi that's electric... [Edited by: reb4 at 6/2/2012 9:24:14 AM EST]
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 1, 2012 7:10:53 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse If the government was going to push for something you think it would be CNG. Out off all the alternatives CNG and bio diesel look the best. I don't know who decided electric was the be all end all when it comes to vehicles.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,056 Points:2,362,040 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Jun 1, 2012 2:04:53 PM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse Or you could just buy a CNG version of the Honda Civic set up that way by Honda.
HotRod10 Champion Author Wyoming Posts:2,291 Points:40,590 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: Jun 1, 2012 1:44:47 PM Ignore HotRod10 Report Abuse "...CNG we have in abundance, so that's an alternative fuel that makes sense." For some applications, yes. The space required for the tank is the main drawback for regular cars. It is being used by a number of companies and municipalities that have fleets of trucks or buses that can accomodate the size of the pressurized tank, and have their own filling station.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 30, 2012 11:30:15 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse "I'm looking for a new starting battery for my motorhome. If anyone sees a sale, let me know". I am experementing with LiFePO4 starting batteries. My largest one so far starts a 22:1 compression 395 cubic inch diesel. I replaced nearly 100 pounds of lead acid battery with about 8 pounds of lithium and freed up some room under the hood to install an air compressor and larger air cleaner. Space and weight my be the last thing you are thinking about on a motorhome.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,056 Points:2,362,040 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: May 30, 2012 9:05:36 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse gougedQC - "I wonder why we're not exploring hydrogen technology??? " Because we don't have hydrogen to burn as fuel, and it costs way too much to make it. Now CNG we have in abundance, so that's an alternative fuel that makes sense. I'm looking for a new starting battery for my motorhome. If anyone sees a sale, let me know.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 30, 2012 4:26:37 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse I always hear "the price of batteries is going to go down". Since I am the only person around here that buys individual cells to build battery packs I know how much they really cost. I always order different quantities of the same kind of battery (the LiFePO4 A123 cell). It looks like my old battery order invoices were shredded so I can say for sure what the amount is but I know the price has been slowly inching upwards over the last few years. This spring I ordered almost $300 worth of cells, it had been almost a year since my last order. When I checked prices I was wondering where I had seen all the cheap cells last year. I do not remember them being so expensive. Want to know how much power $300 worth of cells gets you? Only about 0.2kwh. Enough power to drive an electric car about half a mile. Double that size and it would make a pretty nice battery for a mild hybrid or small light high power starting battery for a diesel truck.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 30, 2012 1:49:13 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Another reason an electric taxi is a bad idea. electric taxi explodes, killing 3 Had it been diesel powered this wouldn't have been a problem. [Edited by: oilpan4 at 5/30/2012 1:49:17 AM EST]
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 29, 2012 10:42:21 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse As I have already stated shock, I do not believe EV's solve any problems in today's world given their limited range and cost as this will limit their effectiveness in permeating the market and becoming mainstream such that oil consumption will be reduced.
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: May 29, 2012 10:37:39 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse ld hienz makes some interesting points.. many taxis are not owned, but rather rented by the drivers and do run as many hours and days as possible.. ( an electric cant do that) also the previous cliam that EV efficiency offsets carbon output of coal fired power plants...frankly Id need to see several believable scientific studies before I accept that also recycling batteries is not a green operation, and China is controlling rare earth materials-which are bound to get more expensive Meanwhile Lithium mining goes on in places like Chile, and such operations are widely known as not being green at all, and sometimes violent against locals. EV technology may not be at its peak, but maybe also its not the right path for general purpose vehicles.. I wonder why we're not exploring hydrogen technology???
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,148 Points:2,188,085 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 29, 2012 8:56:00 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse So... Now that we have established that Moore's law does not apply to batteries, can you finally agree that EV's solve no problems in the present day and age?
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 28, 2012 9:31:38 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse Finally...
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 28, 2012 3:31:08 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse "Well, because you say so it must be true"... Finely you are catching on.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 28, 2012 10:20:04 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse ""Moore's Law" doesn't apply to batteries." Well, because you say so it must be true...
johnchase All-Star Author Miami Posts:554 Points:377,890 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 27, 2012 11:35:40 PM Ignore johnchase Report Abuse What
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,056 Points:2,362,040 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: May 27, 2012 4:19:41 PM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse Electric motors are not very efficient. Any advantage comes from not having to idle in traffic. They do have to run the A/C, of course, which makes them MUCH worse on range. That's why electric vehicles are completely impractical for taxicabs.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 27, 2012 1:57:05 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse "Electric cars make sense as taxis and delivery vehicles in congested areas like NYC" Then why aren't they? NYC taxi companies were pretty quick to adopt the prius. I read an article a few years ago that said the taxi cabs (to include the prius) would be ran for up to a week continuously, 24hrs round the clock when they swap out drivers. How can an electric do that? If you are sitting at a charging station you aren't making any money. These guys aren't running an environmental charity.
rick_evans Champion Author Boston Posts:3,739 Points:1,036,635 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: May 27, 2012 11:59:14 AM Ignore rick_evans Report Abuse Electric cars make sense as taxis and delivery vehicles in congested areas like NYC where emissions are a chronic problem. Also, the coal fired plant generated electricity counter argument is a red herring since the high electric motor efficiency offsets the slightly higher coal emissions when compared to stop and go gasoline emissions.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 24, 2012 2:03:41 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse "huge price increases caused by material shortages" Here is the scale of the problem. In the past you had 100s of millions of people wanting small lithium or NiMH batteries for small consumer electronic toys no one had more than a pound or 2 of lithium batteries. Now every one wants lithium batteries and 100s of millions of consumers is about to become 2 or 3 billion consumers, some of those consumers (tens of thousands) are buying up hundreds of pounds of lithium batteries just for their car. Technology wont save us from this one.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,056 Points:2,362,040 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: May 23, 2012 9:09:41 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse Weaslespit - "Since you quoted the statement I would have thought that to be intuitive, no?" Umm, No. You still failed to address the real question, which was that no amount of battery technology improvement looks likely to prevent prices going up due to battery material shortages. Your point was that "technology will save us" and it won't. Battery technology has been improving for over 100 years and the technology isn't close to being adequate. "Moore's Law" doesn't apply to batteries.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 22, 2012 11:20:32 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "It has nothing (or little) to do with technology. The argument made was that the raw materials are not available to scale up those technologies without huge price increases caused by material shortages. Will you please address the question?" No question was asked that needs to be addressed - a statement was made to which I responded. Since you quoted the statement I would have thought that to be intuitive, no?
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 22, 2012 10:21:12 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse "Only if you believe that battery technology has peaked" LiFePO4 and LiPoly has advanced far enough to where the peak is within sight. The added cost of advancements used to increase battery capacity or make them last longer out weighs the gain. The only place where the small gains with not so small price increases are welcome are in the consumer electronic toy market (cell phones, ipad, tablet, psp and so on). Not all advancements are backwards compatible or stackable. I would not expect the capacity of my A123 cells I use for just about everything to exceed 2500mah and still be affordable any time soon. Expecting them to hit 3ah is boarder line delusional.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,148 Points:2,188,085 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: May 22, 2012 10:18:29 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "We should think about all the parts that go in to making just the body parts of a toyota prius" I hate to burst your bubble, the parts to make the body of a Prius is not different then the parts to make the body of a conventional car... So what's your point?
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,056 Points:2,362,040 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: May 22, 2012 8:58:44 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse "Nothing indicates electric vehicles will get cheaper. The price of lithium for batteries is set to go up." Weaslespit - "Only if you believe that battery technology has peaked. Given that we are still refining the ICE after 100 years, I think the battery still has a ways to go before it reaches its technological peak." It has nothing (or little) to do with technology. The argument made was that the raw materials are not available to scale up those technologies without huge price increases caused by material shortages. Will you please address the question?
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 9:48:00 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Nothing indicates electric vehicles will get cheaper. The price of lithium for batteries is set to go up." Only if you believe that battery technology has peaked. Given that we are still refining the ICE after 100 years, I think the battery still has a ways to go before it reaches its technological peak.
Change4good Rookie Author Colorado Posts:63 Points:2,525 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 9:19:39 PM Ignore Change4good Report Abuse Recently I watched a documentary about this very subject. Maybe you saw it freedomfflow? It explained how really there is not much gained from all these advances in enegy conservation due to what you mentioned when you wrote "To produce batteries, and the electricity to recharge these batteries, don't we need to burn fossil fuels anyway?" It is true! We are still dealing with the chemical waste produced manufacturing solar panels and the lightwieght composites used on the wind turbines paddles. And all those CNC machines are using oil to manufacture the motor parts of a wind turbine. We should think about all the parts that go in to making just the body parts of a toyota prius. People who think there doing anyone a favor by driving one of those are living another lie that toyota corporation convinced them of through the wonderful sincere advertising on television. Mindless idiots just go buy buy buy because of the television advertising. Doesn't anyone realize that television is not real egardless of how well the actors and actresses do ther job? Stupid is smart?!!!
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 8:40:22 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Nothing indicates electric vehicles will get cheaper. The price of lithium for batteries is set to go up. Nickel is already high due to the demand from the hybrid market even with their tiny hybrid batteries. China who has total control over the REE market is preparing to "control prices" and "ban exports" of some metals for national security and other reasons. And over all the price of regular cars has at least doubled since the 1970s and that is with inflation factored in.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 7:02:04 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Actually hemond your example is not a fair anylsis of the issue... you are arguing for an electric vehicle with a cord.. and an electric vehicle with a battery... Between those choices, which would yuo take.." LOL, another fair criticism of this silly comparison.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 7:00:36 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Once again we have another example of dodging , ducking and dancing around the point with a smug, condescending attempt to shift the discussion to irrelevancies." For some reason you can't respond without personal attacks. How unfortunate. Regarding my 'dodging' the point, I have only responded to direct questions asked by yourself. If you don't understand the answers, perhaps you should revisit your questions? Unfortunately your corded powertool comparison is also a bit thin as you are getting what you pay for. The corded tool is limited in its range (thus its ability to get the job done) whereas a cordless model has an unlimited range. The material that the battery is made out of is irrelevant as cordless power tools have always been more expensive than their corded counterparts (for reasons already explained). That being said, as I have also posted, EV's are not a good value at this time because you are not getting what you pay for (as you do with your cordless power tools). You are paying premium not for a product that has more range, or better cost savings in gas usage but simply for the sake of owning a new technology (similar to people who first bought plasma TV's when they were $20K). Hopefully the future will bring a day so that you do get what you pay for with regards to EV's, but today is not that day.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,145 Points:1,825,050 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 6:54:04 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse "And why not? The example proves my point. No one has disproved it. Whether tools or cars, lithium powered devices are much more expensive than conventional. In the case of cars twice so" Actually hemond your example is not a fair anylsis of the issue... you are arguing for an electric vehicle with a cord.. and an electric vehicle with a battery... Between those choices, which would yuo take..
2012ny Sophomore Author New Jersey Posts:184 Points:78,470 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 6:48:09 PM Ignore 2012ny Report Abuse ddd
2012ny Sophomore Author New Jersey Posts:184 Points:78,470 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 6:48:02 PM Ignore 2012ny Report Abuse d
2012ny Sophomore Author New Jersey Posts:184 Points:78,470 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 6:47:57 PM Ignore 2012ny Report Abuse dddd
2012ny Sophomore Author New Jersey Posts:184 Points:78,470 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 6:47:52 PM Ignore 2012ny Report Abuse bf
2012ny Sophomore Author New Jersey Posts:184 Points:78,470 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 6:47:44 PM Ignore 2012ny Report Abuse tgtg
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,062 Points:306,900 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 5:03:30 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Unfortunately I cant buy or build a battery powered tool that can compete with gas or 120vac powered tools when it comes to cost, longevity and performance. I build up LiFePO4 battery packs, the largest one so far was a starting battery for a diesel engine and it put out up to 1200 amps so I am well aware of what they can do and how much they cost.
Hemond Champion Author Providence Posts:8,218 Points:133,925 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 1:50:23 PM Ignore Hemond Report Abuse ::::not back to the saw running on batteries again... yikes! """ And why not? The example proves my point. No one has disproved it. Whether tools or cars, lithium powered devices are much more expensive than conventional. In the case of cars twice so.
Hemond Champion Author Providence Posts:8,218 Points:133,925 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: May 21, 2012 1:47:27 PM Ignore Hemond Report Abuse QUOTE::::Oops, careful with those personal attacks.::: Once again we have another example of dodging , ducking and dancing around the point with a smug, condescending attempt to shift the discussion to irrelevancies. To repeat once again. A lithium powered vehicle costs twice as much as a conventional ICE powered vehicle. Case in point a Volt versus a Cruze or in the case of tools a corded drill versus a lithium powered drill.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 10:41:20 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Thats in addition to your rude smugness and condescension. Your preface "Strange...." is typical of your denigrating attitude toward those you disagree with." Oops, careful with those personal attacks...
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,145 Points:1,825,050 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 10:21:57 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse not back to the saw running on batteries again... yikes!
Hemond Champion Author Providence Posts:8,218 Points:133,925 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 10:17:59 AM Ignore Hemond Report Abuse :::Strange how you completely ignored my most recent post which was a direct answer to your question.::: My point remains unchallenged - lithium battery powered cars are twice as costly or more than equivalent ICE powered cars. Example once again, Volt versus Cruze. And as I already stated, your posts are all evasive sidestepping. You expect others to comment on your smokescreen posts. Thats in addition to your rude smugness and condescension. Your preface "Strange...." is typical of your denigrating attitude toward those you disagree with.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,145 Points:1,825,050 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 10:13:23 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse ldheinz, I didn't "junk" the 2002 Mercury sable, I sold it to somone else... you never did include the money you have invested in the vehicle since you purchased. On Message Posted: May 2, 2012 9:23:21 AM ldheinz "reb4, I got 21 mixed from that Taurus when I bought it. Since then I've added an Accel super coil, Taylor Thundervolt wires, E3 Plugs, a set of balanced fuel injectors, K&N air filter, Magnaflow cats/Y-pipe, and lots of other things. " I usually replace vehicles when they get worn and start having mechanical issues. One exception was a 1999 corolla. Which we gifted to son on graduation (still owns today). I did buy the 2002 Mercury sable earlier but was encouraged to do so to help out another son who needed a reliable used car... As for the battery packs they are recycled and re-used... And there is a long history of the prius success... but you enjoy the vehicle. I liked my 1996 taurus... and you seem to really like your 1997..
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,056 Points:2,362,040 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 9:20:11 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse Bell30012, my Taurus gets 32-34 mpg highway and 24-26 around town, and cost me $1900 at the auto auction in 2005. I drive about half the miles that you do, which is still more than the average person. Saving $800/yr, my break-even payback on a Prius would be 31.25 years. No thank you. I like driving a car that I fit in, and can take other people places as well. I also note that reb4 and you in your smugness conveniently ignore all of the pollution generated in junking one car and manufacturing another.
GBHUGVA Champion Author Virginia Beach Posts:4,697 Points:789,160 Joined:Mar 2009	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 7:55:08 AM Ignore GBHUGVA Report Abuse My $ is in realistate, cars are a bad investment, we have too many to count, but never buy new. I'm waiting to crunch the numbers, I really want to replace this POS prius. Only thing good about it is the 40-41mpg. I think if the Ford C-max 7passenger, plug-in hybrid is offered I will bite the bullet and buy new.(If I find some FREE juice here in Hampton Roads that would make the new car worth it). Make my wife happy and clean house or rather driveway. Sell the prius, Merc. V van, and some others, and get a newer Mustang too.
Bell30012 Champion Author Atlanta Posts:3,929 Points:616,785 Joined:Aug 2004	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 7:19:42 AM Ignore Bell30012 Report Abuse My new 2011 Toyota Prius Three cost around $25k. I drive a lot. I've had the vehicle for 133 days. During that time I've driven 11,841 miles. At this rate, I'm estimating that I will put 35,000 miles per year on the vehicle. My average is 49.4 mpg, and I've used 240 gallons thus far. Over a year I will use 708 gallons. I've paid an average gas price of $3.61 per gallon so far. If I continue to pay that over the year I will spend $2556 on fuel this year. If I was driving a vehicle that got 40 mpg I would spend $3159 or $600 more dollars per year. If I was driving a vehicle that got 30 mpg I would spend $4211 or $1656 more dollars per year. $25k isn't a high price for a new vehicle now. Especially for a vehicle with all the bells and whistles my Prius has. Battery replacement in a Prius is not nearly as expensive as people think that it is. I had a 2000 Honda Insight and I investigated the battery replacement costs and found that I could replace the battery for $2000 to $2500. A lot depends on your driving. If you don't drive much then you won't save much. Back in 2000-2, I had a GM EV-1. It was a great vehicle. I leased it because of the government subsidies. Adding up the Federal and State subsidies and I basically drove it for free for 23 months. We had charging stations that were free and I had a special electric meter for my home charger. I paid a very low rate on (govt subsidies). How is it that we, the USA could build a vehicle like the EV-1 that could exceed a hundred miles on a charge in 2000 and now our best EV built by a US company gets 25-50 miles on the battery before switching to an inefficient ICE? We are losing this race. [Edited by: Bell30012 at 5/20/2012 7:20:20 AM EST]
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 12:32:51 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "That is not entirely true. At some point the batteries will be all used up, they wont last for ever." Nothing lasts forever... Was there a point besides stating the obvious?
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,964 Points:314,120 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: May 20, 2012 12:28:59 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Thats very nice but completely dances around my point. Once again you deliberately sidestep the point with an irrelevant and evasive comment." Strange how you completely ignored my most recent post which was a direct answer to your question.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,145 Points:1,825,050 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: May 19, 2012 7:38:40 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse "And you paid, what, roughly $30,000 so that you could save about $30/month? You turned a loss up front and a loss down the road. Your lost interest on the purchase amount is a lot more than you're saving on gas. " LHheinz, you are very funny talking finance to me, the man driving a 1996 ford taurus... lets just say the vehicle was 25K and that was walk out price and it listed for 28,600. Doesn't include my trade-in since I sold it for a reasonable price (for buyer and seller) . AND the PRIUS has been more than I had ever hoped for... Beyond my wildest dreams... (though I have adjusted now) and I'm talking about dreams about a hybrid vehicles mind you... [Edited by: reb4 at 5/19/2012 7:39:43 PM EST]
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,056 Points:2,362,040 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: May 19, 2012 9:50:58 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse reb4 " ...I got 55.78mpg on my last tank of gas, and went 462 miles ... And I paid cash for my car." And you paid, what, roughly $30,000 so that you could save about $30/month? You turned a loss up front and a loss down the road. Your lost interest on the purchase amount is a lot more than you're saving on gas.