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detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 4, 2009 2:31:39 PM Ignore detfan Report Abuse It goes without saying that the last year for GM has been ugly in the press. Kick a company when the U.S. economy tanks. Hopefully, as history looks at Rick Waggoner, he will be seen as the man that took the challenge of building a worldwide platform that is now the envy of the automotive industry. He broke GM doing it, but nobody could see that the year 2010, which was to be the promised land for much higher efficiency in costs and steady profits could not be reached with liquid assets on hand. As early as Spring 2009, GM was liquid enough to make it to 2010, and even would’ve reported profits in 2009, had sales stayed level. But sales kept declining and then credit was not available, and then the financial crisis hit. So here we are. However, instead of losing, market share, the more recent launches of GM vehicles have kept GM with about the same market share as a couple of years ago. The only reason GM’s reported market share is lower is because their fleet sales are highly reduced this year. In July’s sales alone it is estimated that an additional 35,000 fleet sales would’ve been made, but GM plants have been closed or on reduced production most of the year, all but killing the ability to make fleet sales. This will normalize in the 4th quarter and you will see a 1.5% to 2% pop in market share. Retail market share is going up. The CTS, Malibu and the Lamba’s(8 seat crossovers are all selling at much higher levels than just 2 years ago. In fact, as of this posting on August 4, 2009, GM has probably regained the number one spot in global sales. GM closed the gap against Toyota by 143,149 vehicles in the 2nd quarter, closing the lead that Toyota had to just 7,793 vehicles. With China sales up 77% in July for GM, it would appear that GM has passed Toyota to date. Welcome to the Renaissance. Its only begun. This is where I will be posting sales data, product reviews, and generally positive GM news.

detfan

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Tallahassee

Posts:12,172
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2009 2:31:39 PM

Ignore detfan Report Abuse

It goes without saying that the last year for GM has been ugly in the press. Kick a company when the U.S. economy tanks. Hopefully, as history looks at Rick Waggoner, he will be seen as the man that took the challenge of building a worldwide platform that is now the envy of the automotive industry. He broke GM doing it, but nobody could see that the year 2010, which was to be the promised land for much higher efficiency in costs and steady profits could not be reached with liquid assets on hand. As early as Spring 2009, GM was liquid enough to make it to 2010, and even would’ve reported profits in 2009, had sales stayed level. But sales kept declining and then credit was not available, and then the financial crisis hit. So here we are.

However, instead of losing, market share, the more recent launches of GM vehicles have kept GM with about the same market share as a couple of years ago. The only reason GM’s reported market share is lower is because their fleet sales are highly reduced this year. In July’s sales alone it is estimated that an additional 35,000 fleet sales would’ve been made, but GM plants have been closed or on reduced production most of the year, all but killing the ability to make fleet sales. This will normalize in the 4th quarter and you will see a 1.5% to 2% pop in market share. Retail market share is going up. The CTS, Malibu and the Lamba’s(8 seat crossovers are all selling at much higher levels than just 2 years ago. In fact, as of this posting on August 4, 2009, GM has probably regained the number one spot in global sales. GM closed the gap against Toyota by 143,149 vehicles in the 2nd quarter, closing the lead that Toyota had to just 7,793 vehicles. With China sales up 77% in July for GM, it would appear that GM has passed Toyota to date. Welcome to the Renaissance. Its only begun.

This is where I will be posting sales data, product reviews, and generally positive GM news.

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geminijax Champion Author Jacksonville Posts:16,826 Points:2,725,950 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Aug 31, 2012 9:43:02 AM Ignore geminijax Report Abuse CPG, where did you find that info, esp. the marketing cash item? Would you please post some links? The latter is very interesting.
CoolPriusGuy Champion Author Detroit Posts:1,791 Points:95,470 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Aug 30, 2012 11:02:21 PM Ignore CoolPriusGuy Report Abuse GM cut their U.S. research staff by 25% this year and four senior technical leaders have bolted over a relatively short period of time. Also, they’re hemorrhaging marketing cash like no other automaker in the U.S. marketplace.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 30, 2012 10:47:48 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse This isn't an "OMG, The World is Ending" thing but GM Truck Inventory at well over 120 days. Thats a lot of trucks. The local Chevy dealer is already taking 20% off MSRP on all his Silverados, no dickering involved.
Audioquest Champion Author London Posts:1,073 Points:99,210 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 11:13:25 PM Ignore Audioquest Report Abuse "Audioquest, you are right. I expected a GM enthuasist site to be filled with GM enthusiasts, not the import elite that does nothing to add to the debate but posts in a demeaning manner. If you could go back and check all my posts you will find that I NEVER was the intstigater, but when someone just comes on and posts in a belitting, sarcastic manner, that is not good for the forums, and I certainly responded in like manner, only with the truth. So you can can think lowly of me if you like. That is fine. There is no respect from me to you either, but you personally have been part of the sarcastic, demeanig import elite crowd , and you are a coward for talking about me on Weaslespits boad instead of posting to mine. So enjoy your contintied negative posting. I certainly have found better ways to spend my hobby time than to constantly put up with you and your ilk." Quite honestly, I really have little need or desire to speak with you directly since I know it will end in a personal attack against me or any of the other members here who disagree with you. Weaslespit at least has the ability to debate in a logical manner and keep it civil. I don't read this thread for any other reason than the debating amuse me to no end and knowing that your next tirade/breakdown is just around the corner makes it irresistible entertainment. Frankly, I could really give a rats ass what GM does, produces, or sells.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 2:26:16 PM Ignore detfan Report Abuse Again, I have to not agree with your premises on GM on most fronts. Gas certainly will go a little higher, but after Romney wins, we will see a pretty quick slide back down in prices. However, if the Annointed One is re elected, GM's volume of truck sales will be the least of all of our worries.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 2:23:15 PM Ignore detfan Report Abuse Now, finally, after all the interference, and ignoring one poster, because of his continued negativity, I can actually post some GM news. There is an excellent article in the latest Motor Trend magazine that gives credibility, that the brand new Cadillac ATS(not yet arrived in Tallahassee) is, for sure, a match when compared to the highly respected BMW 3 series. I also learned why the GM Caprice Police Cruiser is not penetrating well. It is built in Australia, and many Police Departments are required to buy NAFTA built cars. Production will be moved stateside in 2015 model year.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 2:15:09 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse detfan: "These writers know well that the 2013 Malibu will likely maintain its market share, if not increase it, but they want to put GM in bad light, because they feel that puts Obama in a bad light." I understand their motivation and I disagree with much of what they say but sometimes their criticisms of GM are still be worthy of consideration. Further, everybody I know who test-drives a car will hop in the back to see if it's OK for friends and family (I always do... and even when the children were small, I figured they'd grow to be similar to my height... and they did... and that we'd keep the car long enough for this to be a concern... and we did keep the Volvos and Toyotas that long, only the D3 product failed the test of time). That particular author thinks the Malibu will fail that test and that's a real concern. GM is flush with cash right now but we know how fast they can go down the tubes. If gas prices rise, they'll have trouble moving their trucks (GM truck inventories may already be grossly swollen, although GM claims it's pre-emptive inventory for when they take their truck plants offline). If they have trouble moving their trucks and they also can't move the Malibu at a good price, that's going to be a serious problem. The current Malibu rollout has been a poor one. And GM has been in this position before. It's for conditions and reasons like this that few are willing to buy off on the idea of a "GM Renaissance." Another common sentiment, by the way, is that the soft landing that the government afforded GM (which I favored), allowed GM to go through the reorganization without enough shakeup to really rebuild GM. When I look at GM's stubborn insistence on marketing BAS-II, a "hybrid" system that they sell at a premium, which barely affords any fuel economy improvement and is a strategy that tanked the first time they tried it, I am inclined to think the "insufficient shakeup" theory is a good one.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 2:12:45 PM Ignore detfan Report Abuse CharlieH, I respectfully disagree that same timelines are bogus. With the support of the University of Nebraska, and the University of Miami( the two universities I have been able to discuss the comparison with so far)who both agree that this type of comparison is the only way to track the prospective sales patterns of two different products that have different start years. The University of Nebraska actually took some interest, and I will be in further consultations with them, as they consider whether my data could be a suitable subject for a future dissertation for one of their grad students. Keep in mind Charlie H, that my comparison does not take into account that the Prius market was Japan, and the Volt market was the U.S. and now Europe and Asia. Really, I would not get all bent out of shape if I were you, because there are certainly other variables not considered. The sales tracking will certainly take on more credibility if Voltec continues to out perform the Prius year after year, especially after all incentives are removed. Then the only variable will be the Japan market, which Voltec is not allowed in. Can Voltec STILL outsell the Prius, even with that handicap? Probably not. Can it sell more than 500,000 units a year several years from now? Time will tell.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 1:54:18 PM Ignore detfan Report Abuse charlieH, of course that article is going to try to diminish the Malibu also. Please understand that in addition to all the import posting haters like you that choose to diminish GM, and the Malibu, and the Volt, and anything else GM on a daily basis, that you have ally's in the conservative press, not for GM's sake but the nature of their situation with President Obama. These writers know well that the 2013 Malibu will likely maintain its market share, if not increase it, but they want to put GM in bad light, because they feel that puts Obama in a bad light. Personally, and I am a conservative voter myself, I think their attacks over the last year, and continuing now, is not a good strategy.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 1:38:44 PM Ignore detfan Report Abuse Audioquest, you are right. I expected a GM enthuasist site to be filled with GM enthusiasts, not the import elite that does nothing to add to the debate but posts in a demeaning manner. If you could go back and check all my posts you will find that I NEVER was the intstigater, but when someone just comes on and posts in a belitting, sarcastic manner, that is not good for the forums, and I certainly responded in like manner, only with the truth. So you can can think lowly of me if you like. That is fine. There is no respect from me to you either, but you personally have been part of the sarcastic, demeanig import elite crowd , and you are a coward for talking about me on Weaslespits boad instead of posting to mine. So enjoy your contintied negative posting. I certainly have found better ways to spend my hobby time than to constantly put up with you and your ilk.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 11:22:31 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "LOL! Detfan's behavior hasn't changed a whole, despite claims to the contrary. I can't help but wonder why GB lets detfan continue in this vein." "If there is anyone still using this thread to discuss the topic at hand, without behaving childishly, please excuse this irrelevant disruption... To all others: Please try to keep personal comments to yourself. Contrary to popular belief, we actually have a few things to do at GB, many of which taking higher priority than having to babysit members in the forums. If we continue to to receive reports for attacks on certain members, we will not waste more time on the matter, we will just block members from the message forums. We are not interested in who started or who the bigger meanie is. This isn't kindergarten. Always ask yourself, "Is it kind toward GasBuddy members? Does it add valuable content to the discussion at hand without belittling other posters? Do I really need to post this?" If the answer is "Yes," to each of these questions; post away. If the answer is "No," to even one of these questions, perhaps your own personal website or blog would be a better place to post it."
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,107 Points:2,183,210 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 10:47:13 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse 2013 Chevy Volt Production To Halt For 4 Weeks From Mid-September Looks like the Volt is not selling as well as GM hoped...
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 9:54:42 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Worldwide Ranking Update It looks like GM will remain in the #2 spot this year.
geminijax Champion Author Jacksonville Posts:16,826 Points:2,725,950 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 8:56:39 AM Ignore geminijax Report Abuse detfan: "Sure enough, the little weasel moron Cool Prius Guy wrote this on my whiteboard:" "CPG is a belitting idiot." LOL! Detfan's behavior hasn't changed a whole, despite claims to the contrary. I can't help but wonder why GB lets detfan continue in this vein. Liefhebber: "The average annual income of people who bought the Volt in 2011 was $175,000." Thanks for posting that. I didn't know that little bit. Based on that, I'd venture to guess that the Volt isn't the primary family vehicle for those buyers.
Liefhebber Champion Author Chicago Posts:2,346 Points:366,025 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: Aug 29, 2012 2:32:22 AM Ignore Liefhebber Report Abuse I haven't seen any evidence, or read any reliable reports that say the Volt isn't an excellent vehicle. The negatives have all been quibbles, with the exception of price. Clearly the car costs $10,000 too much. The average annual income of people who bought the Volt in 2011 was $175,000. If and when GM can sell it for around $30,000 they'll really have something.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,107 Points:2,183,210 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 4:30:52 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse If GM could produce a high quality economical hybrid, like Toyota does, then it too would be selling 50,000 units a month. That they don't have a hybrid that sells at that level speaks volumes...
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,107 Points:2,183,210 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 4:29:02 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse No hate, simple realism. It's too bad that you judge reality to be "hate"...
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 9:43:38 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse Looks like shock has decided to join the hate party. Enjoy your thread boys...
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,092 Points:1,820,175 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 9:20:25 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Some ace has indicated that I post erroneus information... Here is the information for Sales I posted through July 2012 for Volt. LINK PROVIDED! Global Sales through July for Chevy Volt Obviously this person doesn't like the fact that they can't control the complete content of this topic they started. The Voltec has not sold 7,000 this year. They have been deceived, or are attempting to decieve people. When people have trouble supporting their view they typically attack other posters. At least this poster realizes they can't get away from those antics. He posted on my white board a while back with vulgar teenage gutter language which I still maintain im my email save box. I deleted the postings and blocked him from further antics like that. Personally he should have been banned for that.. Maybe gasbuddy should lock out detfan...
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,107 Points:2,183,210 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 8:59:32 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "At a meager 1.5% of total cars sold, after a decade plus, it is no-wonder no other manufacturer anywhere in the world besides Toyota has delved so deeply into hybrids.." Obviously because no one else can come up with an economical high quality hybrid. Take GM's hybrids for example... "Another Op-ed hating on GM - dime a dozen" Perhaps the reason these are so plentiful because they contain the truth... "Really? I see one segment where Toyota dominates and unfortunately for them it is not a larg one..." The segment may not be large due to GM and others incompetence when it comes to designing hybrids, but the Hybrid Toyota offers is the third best selling model in the world, and of course the top tow are not GM either...
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 8:33:37 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse detfan: "Monthly sales of Voltec needed to exceed Prius same timeline sales: 1,276." These "timeline" sales comparisons to Toyota's first hybrid platform are inappropriate. This is GM's 4th effort and every car is backed by $7500, minimum, in tax rebates (an unprecedented level of tax support). At this point, there's no excuse for slow sales.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 8:23:30 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse detfan: "Note: it is doubtful that all 7,000 Ampera's have been delivered yet since production only reached 7,495." Weaslespit's figures suggest about 3K Amperas have been delivered so far.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 8:17:45 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse geminijax reminds us: "If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes." :D detfan: "In regards to the conservative press continuing their ill advised attack on Obama using GM, thbis time with articles claiming GM is going back into bankruptcy . . . ." The article referenced had some relevant criticisms of the Malibu. That should be GM's hottest selling vehicle and should contribute significantly to profit. If they have screwed it up, that's potentially huge. Certainly, the hybrid-first rollout was a mistake. GM ruined selling prices of the 2012 Malibu and doesn't seem to have put the 2013 on an upward trajectory. Akerson is said to be personally responsible for the decision. If, as I suspect, the new 2.5L Malibu gets similar fuel economy to the Malibu Eco, it's going to make remaining stocks of Ecos hard to clear out at decent prices. And GM's track record on refreshing the BAS vehicles is poor. Again, presuming the 2.5 is better than the 2.4, will GM upgrade the Eco or will they let it languish, as they did the previous generation BAS Malibu, which did not get the 6-speed transmission when the LTZ did, but continued to struggle along with the 4-speed, in spite of the vehicle's high price? GM put itself in the position of selling a "hybrid" that didn't get better fuel economy than the rest of the lineup. Sales were, predictably, poor. And where are they now? They're selling a "hybrid" that is, at least, better than their base previous model year car but it's barely competitive with everybody else's current base car. detfan: "Since exiting bankruptcy in 2009, GM has adhered to a strategy of maintaining a low level of automotive debt on its balance sheet, while also maintaining a high level of cash and credit facility availability." The bailout left GM with a lot of spare cash. GM has $30+ billion on hand but they didn't create that cash pile through operations. Some have complained about Obama "forcing" GM into bankruptcy but a) that's crap, GM had steered itself into bankrupcty just fine, thank you very much, with decades of mismanagement and by piling up debts that they could never repay and b) the Administration generously made very sure that, by giving GM a very solid cash position, GM could weather any immediate recessionary storm. From a pragmatic standpoint, what would be the point of "rescuing" GM only to see it collapse again immediately. They did the thing right.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 7:52:12 AM Ignore detfan Report Abuse Another correction to an import poster. This time it is reb4, who likes to laugh at me alot, just because I am accurate enough that he has nothing else to say except nervous laughter, and poo-pooing same timeline sales comparisons, a generally accepted comparison model by Financial Business Administration professors, while he posts inaccurate numbers. Volt sales 2010: 326 Volt sales 2011: 7,671 Volt sales thru July 2012: 10,666 Volt Canada sales 2011:275 Volt Canada thru July 2012:600 Volt China: unknown(small number) Total Volt sales: 19,538 Ampera sales 2011:304 Ampera sales 2012: 7,000 Total Voltec sales: 26,842. Monthly sales of Voltec needed to exceed Prius same timeline sales: 1,276. Note: it is doubtful that all 7,000 Ampera's have been delivered yet since production only reached 7,495(plus the 304 sold in 2011)thru July. We will see what production is in August, but with another 4 week shutdown in September to prepare for the 2014 Impala, it is unlikely that GM will get to the 10,000 Ampera's that they indicated would sell in 2012. I will continue to use the 7,000 number, even if it becomes obvious the sales number exceeds it until actual sales numbers showing sales higher than 7,000 is reported. That said, please GasBuddy, please lock this Forum.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 7:07:59 AM Ignore detfan Report Abuse In regards to the conservative press continuing their ill advised attack on Obama using GM, thbis time with articles claiming GM is going back into bankruptcy . . . . Aug 24 - Fitch Ratings has upgraded the Issuer Default Ratings (IDRs) of General Motors Company (GM) and General Motors Holdings LLC (GM Holdings) to 'BB+' from 'BB' and affirmed the ratings of General Motors Financial Company, Inc. (GMF) at 'BB'. The Rating Outlook for all three entities is Stable. In addition, Fitch has affirmed GM Holdings' secured revolving credit facility rating at 'BBB-' and upgraded GM's Series B preferred stock rating to 'BB-' from 'B+'. A full list of the rating actions taken on GM and its subsidiaries is included at the end of this release. The upgrade of GM's ratings reflects the automaker's continued positive free cash flow generating capability, very low leverage, strong liquidity position, reduced pension obligations and improved product portfolio. Since exiting bankruptcy in 2009, GM has adhered to a strategy of maintaining a low level of automotive debt on its balance sheet, while also maintaining a high level of cash and credit facility availability. This has provided the company with substantial financial flexibility that would allow it to withstand a future auto industry downturn. GM is also the most global of the Detroit Three, with a particularly strong presence in China, which would help to shield the company from a downturn that is focused on a particular region. GM receives between $1 billion and $2 billion annually in cash dividends from its Chinese joint ventures.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 7:01:00 AM Ignore detfan Report Abuse Sure enough, the little weasel moron Cool Prius Guy wrote this on my whiteboard: "GM sales down 2% YTD…I'll be complaining to the mods!" Totally sarcastic. Meant to be demeaning . . . and wrong. GM sales thru July 2011: 1,476,548 GM sales thru July 2012: 1,516,950, a 2.7% INCREASE This is why this board sucks. There are two many import elite posters, doing the very same thing, and I have to end up correcting them, instead of posting data and information. CPG is a belitting idiot. Please GasBuddy. Lock this thread!! [Edited by: detfan at 8/28/2012 7:01:38 AM EST]
geminijax Champion Author Jacksonville Posts:16,826 Points:2,725,950 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 12:17:19 AM Ignore geminijax Report Abuse Weaslespit: "Thousands might feel otherwise, but millions appear to feel the same?" LOL! Merely because "millions" don't own the Prius (yet), doesn't mean they don't like the handling. That isn't logical deduction by any stretch of one's imagination. "Is it? At a meager 1.5% of total cars sold, after a decade plus, it is no-wonder no other manufacturer anywhere in the world besides Toyota has delved so deeply into hybrids..." Yes, it is! It's called vision and leadership. Someone at Toyota had the vision to design and build a hybrid back in the 80s. Some folks in senior management had the vision to bless the project when gas was less than a dollar a gallon. That's called vision and that's what GM's senior management has lacked for many years now. As the old saw goes, "If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes." Perhaps that explains why the Prius has morphed from a single vehicle into a separate brand with it's own identity, whereas the "view" for the #2 maker of hybrids isn't changing a whole lot, insofar as the hybrids are concerned.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 11:53:11 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Ws: "Really? I see one segment where Toyota dominates and unfortunately for them it is not a larg one..." It's about 3% of the market here and the Prius and Prius C are the two top-selling cars in Japan. I think Toyota is doing just fine. Should I run down the list of GM vehicles that don't sell as well as the Prius hatchback? Ws: "Have you seen the specs on the new Nissan Altima?" I have. The more important question is, "Has Akerson seen the specs on the new Altima and, if so, what's he going to do about it?" Just this Spring, GM rolled out a "hybrid" that doesn't measure up at all well agasint the conventional drivetrain of the Altima. That's downright embarassing. Or GM should consider it embarassing - maybe they don't. I hope their new 2.5 engine delivers fuel economy and performance but it's not on Edmunds, yet; Nissan has beaten them out of the gate. Nissan's CVT works well, too, and the Altima engine has 182hp, that will go straight to the heart of the powerband and stay there while the CVT does its magic. It only weighs a touch over 3100 lbs, so it's likely to have pretty lively performance.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 11:17:54 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "I beg to differ. It is a wonder. Everybody else, GM particularly, is ceding fuel economy leadership to Toyota." Really? I see one segment where Toyota dominates and unfortunately for them it is not a larg one... Have you seen the specs on the new Nissan Altima? I don't see any signs of the industry ceding fuel convoy leadership in the segments that matter.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 11:13:50 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Back in 2008 we were told GM was in the game in the Hybrid market..." Yes, that was one persons opinion... I think we all saw that BAS failed. Must I continue to revisit this?
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,092 Points:1,820,175 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 10:21:22 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse "Is it? At a meager 1.5% of total cars sold, after a decade plus, it is no-wonder no other manufacturer anywhere in the world besides Toyota has delved so deeply into hybrids..." Back in 2008 we were told GM was in the game in the Hybrid market... Here come the GM Hybrids GM still has the most different Hybrid models of any manufacturer, including Toyota...
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,092 Points:1,820,175 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 10:14:54 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse General Motors seeks $8-$10 billion credit facility Or maybe they are looking to buy back shares from government... at an above market value???
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 9:47:54 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Ws: "Is it? At a meager 1.5% of total cars sold, after a decade plus, it is no-wonder no other manufacturer anywhere in the world besides Toyota has delved so deeply into hybrids..." I beg to differ. It is a wonder. Everybody else, GM particularly, is ceding fuel economy leadership to Toyota. Well, likely the new CAFE regulations will make some changes in the marketplace... Ford's delivering nearly 50mpg with the C-Max hybrid. Of course, maybe GM just plans to continue to game the CAFE system. Their current "hybrid" offerings suggest that's the real plan.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 9:20:06 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "What Renaissance? General Motors Is Headed For Bankruptcy -- Again " Another Op-ed hating on GM - dime a dozen, just like said opinions posted on this thread... The fact is that GM is doing quite nicely in NA.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 9:17:38 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "That's a subjective point. Thousands of consumers, very obviously, feel otherwise." Of course it is, as a most things people decide on when buying a vehicle. Otherwise you would just order the online, sight unseen. Thousands might feel otherwise, but millions appear to feel the same? "This is rather reminiscent of several decades ago when Japanese cars made their appearance in the US. The US automakers didn't take them seriously and the rest is history." Is it? At a meager 1.5% of total cars sold, after a decade plus, it is no-wonder no other manufacturer anywhere in the world besides Toyota has delved so deeply into hybrids... [Edited by: Weaslespit at 8/27/2012 9:17:59 PM EST]
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,107 Points:2,183,210 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 3:46:01 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse What Renaissance? General Motors Is Headed For Bankruptcy -- Again
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,092 Points:1,820,175 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 9:25:49 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse detfan, you are so funny, the 2010 - 2012 chevy volt sales tally is at 22,778 through July 2012... (according to my information) Toyota Prius when it was introduced sold 33,200, from December 1997 through december 1999, so if Chevy keeps selling they should be in good pace to surpass in your fantasy car sales league this year... I hope they continue to sell more vehicles and offer lower price point so more people can afford the ride... You may have missed the articles posted last week. I only posted the link and short summary and comment of articles. You might want to create your own blog on a site that you control the content... That might work better than a forum you don't control...
ChuckByf Rookie Author Indiana Posts:83 Points:2,120 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 5:40:13 AM Ignore ChuckByf Report Abuse When GM gets off of their ass and puts out a fuel sipper small truck, then maybe I'll buy it.
geminijax Champion Author Jacksonville Posts:16,826 Points:2,725,950 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2012 12:17:00 AM Ignore geminijax Report Abuse Ws: "When it finally gets to 100mph..." Have you ever tried that? It certainly doesn't take too long to get past 90 mph, for sure. "'Performance' does not mean 'speed'. Speed is one factor, sure, but not the only factor. I certainly don't care for the way it handles." That's a subjective point. Thousands of consumers, very obviously, feel otherwise. "GM is fulfilling El Lutzbo's prophecy, "People don't want GM's hybrids." " "The entire customer base is fulfilling said prophecy. The cold hard facts don't lie." Prophecy? LOL. When Lutz made that comment, consumers were waiting to get their hands on a Prius for several months, sometimes paying a markup over MSRP. Now, the Prius has morphed from a single vehicle to a whole line of vehicles. This is rather reminiscent of several decades ago when Japanese cars made their appearance in the US. The US automakers didn't take them seriously and the rest is history. Now, obviously some aren't taking the growing population of hybrids seriously. Rather than look at the %age of hybrids sold relative to the number of traditional vehicles sold, it would be more germane to look at the rate of growth of total vehicles sold and that of hybrids sold.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 9:10:24 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse In its first quarter (Feb, Mar, Aper), Prius PHV worldwise sales were 7.3K (source: Green Car Congress). Solid information on Ampera/Euro Volt sales are hard to come by but it's by no means a given that the "Voltec" is winning.
detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,172 Points:1,240,580 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 8:12:18 PM Ignore detfan Report Abuse reb4 my comparison of Voltec and the Toyota Prius is still in Voltec's favor and widening, when you include July sales, and is likely to improve again in August. Really it looks like year 4 will also go Voltec,s way. The only question is whether Voltec can explode in sales in later years like the Prius eventually did. Just because I am not posting, please don't make up a reason why I am not posting which isn't true. And you not liking same timeline comparisons don't make them wrong. Thank you. I believe you know the reason I've stopped posting is, and has been proven now for a few weeks, that both this and the GM hybrid site have stopped being enthusiast forums, and have become an import centric GM negative posting haven, with all manner of negativity, sarcasm, belittlement, and misinformation. That was never the intent and I see the mods have agreed with me. I mean just look. Weaslespit is the only enthusiast continuing with these forums, and he only makes up 15% of the posts. The rest are dominated by import elite posts, CharlieH, gemiinijax, reb4, with occasional support posts from audioquest and contiki. I am sorry the GB mods have not closed these forums down yet. There appears to be absolutely no actual information being posted, but only mentally challenged "debate" and that is a generous description. It is so bad on these threads, I am sure I will regret even posting this.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,092 Points:1,820,175 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 7:09:29 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Link to Sales Numbers YTD for cars sold in USA. there you go Weasle, knock your self out!CHarlie, I Guess the height of the vehicle is what they want to use for volume and head room where they dominate. I stopped by but the local dealer had no idea when one would be there. Service manager, who I spoke to indicated none came in, and I heard how service was well trained (computer training) on service...
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 6:10:58 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Since the subject concerns the "GM Renaissance" why when discussing hybrids, are your only criticisms directed toward non-GM products (the #2 seller of hybrid products)?" Have not been reading what I have been posting? I used the Camry hybrid as it had been used recently in previous posts but the point is the same; the hybrid market is currently a poor value for most consumers. The Prius gives the best potential on paper for gas savings however the underlying variables that determines how much value can be had comes down to three - percentage of city miles driven, total miles and the price of gas. Unlike others here my criticisms are not aimed at any particular automaker 100% of the time...
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,107 Points:2,183,210 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 3:19:18 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "I haven't a clue what you are trying to say here..." It's pretty simple actually. Let me rephrase it for you... Since the subject concerns the "GM Renaissance" why when discussing hybrids, are your only criticisms directed toward non-GM products (the #2 seller of hybrid products)?
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 3:03:02 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Ws: "As I have indicated, the only hybrid one can ever hope to eventually save money through gas saved is the Prius." Depends on the price of gas. At 15K miles/year and $3.80 gas, the Camry hybrid payback is about 5 1/2 years (based on median fuel economy on Fuelly). If the car is heavily driven in the city, the payback may be shorter. Many of the taxis in Boston are Camry hybris. Many of the taxis in Madison are Priuses. For taxi service, a hybrid makes quite a bit of sense. As a bonus, the hybrid offers somewhat better performance than the stock LE. reb4: "Charlie, Ford likes to compare the C-Max to the V, but it is more closely compared to the regular Prius, and with that vehicle, it is not less expensive." Oh. I thought it was as big as a V. Looking it up now... Yes, it's a little smaller than the V but it's bigger than the Prius hatchback. I do think I'm justified in calling it a competitor, but it competes somewhere between the Classic and the V. What you go for will just depend on exactly how much space vs fuel economy vs price you want. Well... and whether or not you trust Ford. They burned us pretty good and Mrs. Charlie will never go for one.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 1:40:12 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "So weaslespit, you might want to look at all of the vehicles behind #84, in fact you might look at vehichles in front since I believe the camry will Hybrid will continue upward trend rest of year with gas prices remaining high." Can you link your source? I'll take a look. Volt will probably continue to sell well too ;)
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 1:38:45 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Since the #2 seller of hybrids produces so many of these uneconomical hybrids, and they are the subject of the topic, why do you avoid mentioning them?" I haven't a clue what you are trying to say here...
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,092 Points:1,820,175 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 9:39:47 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse So weaslespit, you might want to look at all of the vehicles behind #84, in fact you might look at vehichles in front since I believe the camry will Hybrid will continue upward trend rest of year with gas prices remaining high. Charlie, Ford likes to compare the C-Max to the V, but it is more closely compared to the regular Prius, and with that vehicle, it is not less expensive.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,107 Points:2,183,210 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 9:24:28 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "That's right, just like the afore-mentioned Camry hybrid." Since the #2 seller of hybrids produces so many of these uneconomical hybrids, and they are the subject of the topic, why do you avoid mentioning them?
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,836 Points:310,720 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Aug 26, 2012 12:07:34 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "That puts them right behind ytd sales for Dodge Challenger.." Yup reb, another niche vehicle. "Obviously not enough for the value, otherwise they would sell better..." That's right, just like the afore-mentioned Camry hybrid. As I have indicated, the only hybrid one can ever hope to eventually save money through gas saved is the Prius.